Podcast: Career Chat Vol. 16: Workplace Mental Health & Well Being—Featuring Amanda Chenkin
On this episode of Career Chat, Amy Pierce-Danders welcomes Amanda Chenkin, Founder & Career Strategist at Choice Career Counseling LLC and Anush Hansen, a Licensed Professional Counselor & Certified Career Counselor at Kennebunk Career & Wellness Counseling to the podcast to discuss the importance of Workplace Mental Health & Well Being. Amy, Amanda & Anush discuss the Surgeon General’s public health framework and its five pillars. They also discuss how HR professionals should ensure their is a focus on mental health and psychological safety in the workplace along with much, much more.
Amy Pierce-Danders: Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of Career Chat on the Real Talk Network. My name is Amy Pierce-Danders, your host for today. I am a career life strategist and founder of E3 Coaching Studio. I am excited that you are joining us for another episode of our Career Chat podcast, that is dedicated to helping today’s professionals become tomorrow’s world leaders.
On today’s episode of Career Chat, we are excited to welcome Amanda Chenkin, Choice Career Counseling, and Anush Hansen, balancedcardsorts.com and Kennebunk Career and Wellness Counseling.
I am excited to dig into the topic of workplace mental health and well-being with them. Hi Amanda and Anush, welcome to the podcast. How are you?
Anush Hansen: Thank you.
Amanda Chenkin: Well. Thanks.
Amy Pierce-Danders: Awesome. Thank you for taking the time to join us on Career Chat.
Before we get started with our conversation, Amanda, could you please share with our listeners a little bit about who you are and what you do?
Amanda Chenkin: Yes, first, thanks for having me today. So, my name is Amanda Chenkin, and I am the owner, counselor, and psychotherapist for Choice Career Counseling.
I say that I fuse mental health and career, as we know they’re not separate. So the field that I specialize in is Career Counseling. I am located in Baltimore, Maryland, and have been doing some form of career development for at least 20 years at this point.
So I’m excited to be here. I’m excited to talk about mental health and well-being in the workplace because that is something that I feel very strongly about, and I’m very passionate about getting the word out. So thank you.
Amy Pierce-Danders: Awesome, Amanda. And yes, we should know that those are fused together, but too often, we have spent a lot of time treating them as their separate entities. So I’m excited for that.
Anush, could you please share with our listeners a little bit about you and what you do?
Anush Hansen: Yes, absolutely. Thank you, Amy. It is really, really nice to be here with both of you.
My name is Anush Hansen. I am a licensed professional counselor and a certified career counselor, and have a private practice in Kennebunk, Maine – Kennebunk Career and Wellness Counseling; And like Amanda, I take a very holistic approach to career and career counseling and how our work impacts our mental health and how our mental health impacts our work.
I also have a masters in public health. So my first 20 years of my career was in health promotion research and public health research and evaluation. And that also kind of weaves into the work that I do in terms of prevention and promoting well-being.
And lastly, have a company called Balanced Card Sorts. This is a company I started during the pandemic, and we develop card sort assessment tools to help employees and students identify what they want and need more of in their personal life, but also in their career to feel more of a sense of balance and well-being.
So yes, I am excited to be here.
Amy Pierce-Danders: Awesome. Thank you, Anush, for sharing that information. For listeners, just so you know, we will have Amanda and Anush’s contact information under today’s podcast narrative.
So let’s dig in, my friends. Anush, I’m going to start with you. The office of the US Surgeon General recently released a framework for workplace mental health and well-being. I think this is kind of revolutionary. I’m not aware that that has ever happened before. Can you please share a little bit more about that framework with our listeners?
Anush Hansen: Yes, absolutely. So this is a really wonderful and timely public health framework that the Surgeon General has put together.
What this does is depicts and explains various components and elements that contribute to mental health and well-being, specifically for employees.
This model includes five pillars. Those are protection from harm, connection and community, work life, harmony, mattering at work, and opportunity for growth. And within each of those pillars, the model gets very specific about what is included within those dimensions.
In the middle of those five pillars is a central component that they’ve identified as foundational to workplace mental health and well-being. And that is worker voice and equity. So these are all elements that play into our mental health – our sense of purpose, our sense of safety, our opportunities for learning and professional development, the connections, and the social health aspects that come with our work. And then, of course, work-life harmony, which has been called all kinds of things, work-life balance, work-life integration. There are many different ways to describe this, but ultimately, how we are able to integrate our personal and our professional lives. And we all know since COVID that flexibility is one of those things that people are really looking for.
So it’s a wonderful model, and it’s exciting because it’s a way for us in career development and also in mental health… and then those who are in the employee wellness space, HR space, to start talking the same language and hopefully focusing our efforts and our interventions and programs using the same model. So as a former public health researcher, I love a good public health model, and I love that this is available to us as career and mental health counselors and also to employers and in place.
Amy Pierce-Danders: Yeah, I absolutely love it as well, and I’m so thankful to you and Amanda for introducing me to the model, taking on a little bit of what you said around the same language, and all of those very sectors. We all intersect but often speak our own languages. So I love the fact that we do have a common language that we can embrace and start utilizing. So thank you so much for that overview.
Amanda, from the lens, or excuse me, for the lens of, not from the lens, for the lens of our HR professionals who are listening today – how can the framework help HR professionals in their work?
Amanda Chenkin: Yeah, excuse me. I think the first part that you all just mentioned is language, right? We all, it’s if we’re going to start making changes or at least examining what’s happening in our own organizations, we need to have language to explain it. So I think that’s a key element.
I would also say that this framework breaks it down enough that you could, you can individualize it for what works with your organization. So this framework truly is a framework with some ideas. I think the key is right, being open to what things could be. Change is small and incremental, and I think this allows for that kind of implementation.
And the example when we’re talking about mattering at work. One of the areas inside that is engaging workers and workplace decisions. That can be as small and as simple as allowing workers to manage at least some portion of their day, right? Like they know what tasks need to get done. And the order in which they do them might not matter. And so they can have some of that decision-making.
So language, looking at this through the lens of your own organization. And I’m sure because this is such a hot topic, lots of organizations have some sort of well-being, work life, diversity, equity inclusion, road map plan. And this is one more piece to overlay in there to help potentially implement some of those plans.
Amy Pierce-Danders: Thank you, Miss Amanda. Yeah, I totally agree about, you know, the flexibility in those things that people are craving.
For HR pros who are listening, I know that you are getting flooded with information and pressures around having individuals return to the office versus employees, team members who want to have more flexibility.
And so, as you are unpacking and making decisions and researching best practices, this framework could definitely serve as a guidepost to give you some ideas as well as validated information when you’re at the table having these conversations with leadership and employees.
I love those points. Thank you so much, Amanda. So I’m going to flip over a little bit here.
Anush. How are you implementing the framework when you have your career developer hat on? How does it play into your work with your clients?
Anush Hansen: Sure. So as a career counselor, but also a mental health counselor, I tend to, I guess, attract clients who know that the way that they are working and living is not sustainable. Because of things like burnout and exhaustion and anxiety and depression, and often for those clients, there is a link with the work that they’re doing. Either not being a good fit or the culture around them. Their work environment is not in alignment with their needs and their values, even if they are engaging in work and using the skills they want to use and doing the work they want to do.
If their mental health and their work-life balance or work-life harmony needs are not being met. If they feel like they don’t matter if they feel like they don’t have any opportunities to advance in their career or get the opportunities that they’re looking forward to grow. They, they are really struggling.
So before this framework came out, I was considering all of these elements, focusing more on the eight dimensions of wellness model, which include physical health, emotional health, social health, financial health, spiritual health, environmental health, and intellectual health. And I may have missed one, but so I was using a wellness framework anyway in speaking with clients about, okay, what are the things that are working in your career, what are the things that are not working, what do you need more of in order to feel more well or more fulfilled. What do you already have? And so I’ve been having these conversations, you know, since I started my career counseling practice.
This framework is a really nice way to capture all of those elements, sort of within that wellness wheel of framework. So when we think of the wellness wheel, we have occupational health, we have emotional health, we have physical health, we have social health, we have financial health; all of these things are wrapped into this framework.
So I just think it provides another really great foundation and a way to talk to our clients about what they need and what they want and then also talk to them about, okay, how are you going to communicate that to your manager or to leadership or to your team? And my hope is that over time, and there’s some larger employee wellness organizations that are talking a lot about this surgeon general’s model now. National Wellness Institute, WELCOA, which is the Wellness Council of America, which folks listening probably already know, but they are leaning heavily into this model and talking a lot about how, okay, our well-being programs have to start looking different. This isn’t about another contest to see who can take the most steps in a week. This is about having hard conversations about the mental health and well-being needs of our employees.
So as a career counselor, you know, I’ve worked with a lot of clients who, you know, with work, identify what they want and need and how they can make this job work for them and make it sustainable. As a part of their life, you know, they want to work hard, they want to do good work, but they also need to take care of themselves and their families and their relationships. And, you know, I’ve had several instances where the client I’m working with identifies these things, goes to their manager, and it kind of falls on deaf ears, and my hope is that over time employers will encourage their managers to start having these conversations because otherwise employees leave.
Folks come to Amanda and myself often when they’re trying to decide if they can stay in their job or if they need to quit their job, and it’s not that they necessarily want to go find a new job. It’s that they can no longer make, make it all work, you know, they’re kind of hanging on by a thread.
That’s a long-winded answer to your question Amy, but that’s my hope for how I can integrate this model and how it might connect to my own clients speaking with their employers about their wellness needs.
Amy Pierce-Danders: Nope, I love long-winded answers, Anush, so you never have to worry about that, my friend. And I didn’t feel that way. I took away a lot of nuggets, one of which was a theme that I heard between you and Amanda, both utilizing this framework, to go back to something Amanda said, for small incremental changes. Both from the leadership side, the organizational side, as well as from our clients or from an employee side of things… utilizing this to create stair steps to change.
And huge fan of the wellness framework right in front of me; right now it’s posted on the wall in front of me as well as the feelings wheel. So huge fan of that.
And there is this craving, I believe, from employees you mentioned for expanded attention on well-being programs, and it’s so awesome to hear that national organizations and companies are saying we need to move beyond the, you know, how many steps in a day, how many steps in a month, which are all awesome. I definitely need more movement in my life, that’s for sure. So excited for some of those things, and I love that I know you both are utilizing in your work and have been that oftentimes working with clients, and then they’re strategizing, creating courage to speak to leadership. And suggestions have fallen on deaf ears. So that’s why I’m so excited that this report is targeted to organizational change. So maybe some movement can happen on behalf of clients.
So thank you so much for that overview. So, I know Anush you had mentioned earlier that there were the five areas included in the framework. So I am going to pivot between each one of you going forward about those five areas, and I am just going to put it out there – I was very selfish about what attracted me most in each of these areas. So I cherry-picked things out.
So Miss Amanda, one of the categories is protection from harm. And the piece in that, there’s lots of great components to it, but was normalized and support mental health. How can an organization take that component and put it into play in the workspace?
Amanda Chenkin: You know, I think normalizing and supporting mental health can be as simple as trying to create… so another aspect in this is psychological safety. So it’s really hard to talk about mental health. In general, it’s really hard typically to talk about it at work. We don’t really talk about it. And so there does need to be an element of true psychological safety. So that I can maybe request a day off when I need it just to recharge. I think some, you know like, there are bigger companies that offer like mental health days or have like unlimited PTO and things like that. So those can be helpful and good. They can also go the complete opposite direction and keep people from taking days off.
So normalizing and supporting mental health is, to me, part of creating true psychological safety so that I as an employee, have the… feel empowered to say to a manager or co-worker – Hey, you know what? Today, it’s just kind of a tough day. So I’m going to reduce my work today. I’m going to take a half day. I’m going to… I’m not going to attend these three meetings. Supporting employees and being able to say what they really need.
There is… as the report shows, but there’s also some other data out there that shows, you know, employees are more productive when they are able to feel psychologically safe at work, be able to ask for what they need. And that is one, one piece.
Amy Pierce-Danders: I am so sure that’s why I picked that section is was your better choice of words, the psychological safety, Amanda because I’ve been in so many spaces and places in my career. Apologies to former employers. Well, no, I’m not going to apologize. You should have created a culture where I could say, hey, I just need a day to regroup. I got a lot of stuff happening in my world. Where I did call in sick and… but wasn’t like, hey, I just need a mental wellness day. And would love to see that be open and transparent and safe in our culture as we move forward. To your point around… can it be a double-edged sword? Yeah, because I happen to know several organizations that say it proudly. We offer mental wellness, mental health days, but then if you take advantage of them, does it start to count against you?
So great points there. So thank you so much.
Anush Hansen: Amy, yes, if I can just chime in. The issue of normalizing and supporting and talking about mental health and well-being needs is really interesting. From my perspective, what I hear from clients, and I’m guessing Amanda’s too. And I’ve been having some conversations with a healthcare system, a large healthcare system on the East Coast. And you know, I’ve been having these conversations with them about, how do we have discussions with our employees, especially in healthcare, about their needs, when there are a lot of needs that we just cannot meet. So, for example, if you are an ER nurse and you’re feeling burnt out, and you want to work from home, you can’t work from home because you need to be in the ER, right? So there may be things that you want and feel you need that, in the reality of your particular role, just aren’t possible.
However, what if there is something else, you know, something small that could be shifted just slightly in order to open up some space for that employee so that their day-to-day is a little bit more manageable.
I think there’s a fear that if we have these conversations about people’s needs and we’re just not able to meet them, not that we don’t want to, but in some instances, we cannot, we’re going to lose employees because we’re going to tell them we can’t give you this.
Amy Pierce-Danders: 100 percent, yeah, but a different lens, you know, yes, that is impossible, but like you said, what is a change can create a space or place or just insert something. Yeah.
Anush Hansen: And the fear of them quitting because we can’t give them what they need there. They’re quitting anyway, right? We’re losing care providers, we’re losing educators, we’re losing folks in higher ed. Like folks are burnt out, and they can’t move forward in this way.
So it’s like you either have the conversation and try to create a culture and some supports and resources that will help your employees. Understanding that you can’t always give them everything they want, that’s OK. But if we just ignore it, you’re going to lose them anyway.
So that, you know, I just feel that being able to be open and honest about these conversations, because managers are struggling too. Leadership is struggling. We’re all struggling.
It’s been a hard few years, and just in general, you know, we’re all collectively experiencing a lot of anxiety and stress and burnout. Leaders are not immune to that. So I think the more we can just be real, the better off you will be.
Amy Pierce-Danders: 100% I can agree more. All right, go ahead, Amanda. Sorry.
Amanda Chenkin: I was going to say we can probably talk about this. I know we can talk about this for hours. But, you know, I think the challenge here is challenging organizations to be willing to have conversations. I think that hasn’t happened.
And so I hope that more organizations will be willing to have those difficult conversations because, as an employee, I think I would very much appreciate that difficult conversation. Even if you can’t give me all the things I want, at least maybe I feel like I’ve been heard. And that might help me want to stay.
Anush Hansen: Yeah, and that fits into that pillar mattering at work.
Amanda Chenkin: Exactly. Yeah.
Anush Hansen: I know that’s the one you chose to talk about, but… Seen. Heard. Being valued. Feeling like you matter. It’s critical. Yeah.
Amy Pierce-Danders: It is. To be seen and heard. It’s absolutely critical. Yeah.
And so around the pillar of connection and community… this comes from a lens, as I said, I picked out very selfish things. But creating cultures of inclusion and belonging. Very important to me as a person of multiple identities, but a primary being to 2SLGBTQIA+ identity.
What is your take, Anush on how that pillar will help in the workplace.
Anush Hansen: Well, belonging and, you know, feeling as though you are part of an organization and accepted wholly as who you are, I mean, that ties into feeling safe and mattering and feeling like you have a voice and that there is equity and equality.
So I mean, it’s absolutely 100%. I mean, it’s a non-negotiable right for all of us to feel like we are able to be our true selves and not be excluded in some way. So I mean that helps with developing feelings of trust and feeling like you have that voice and that you can be who you truly are.
And so I think it’s absolutely, you know, like a key part of this model and also of what employers need to be focusing on. You know, I think we were having a conversation earlier about talking the talk versus walking the walk when it comes to DEIA. Or A&D, Accessibility and Belonging. You can have a diversity equity inclusion committee. And on paper, you know, you’ve checked off that box, but it’s about really, really weaving that into your culture and walking the walk and hearing people’s needs and giving them a voice at the table.
Amy Pierce-Danders: I wish you could see my hands pumping in the air right now, Anush. Because I can’t agree more. And I also appreciated that you spelled out wholly when you utilized it, but under that framework of connections and community, I also wanted to show up as my holy self. And what I mean by that is not in the biblical term, but in all the pieces and parts and lived experiences that I’ve had. And sometimes those are those hard wirings are hard to break. So I appreciate that.
Miss Amanda, you mentioned earlier around flexibility and the ability to control how work is done. The three of us know each other fairly well. And you know that’s something I appreciate having in the workplace. So, under work-life harmony, I selected provide more autonomy of how work is done.
So can you share some practical examples for listeners today of how they might be able to do that and provide that to employees within the different constraints? Anush just mentioned if you’re an ER nurse, you want to work from home, that’s not practical. And so not that example specifically, but what are some things that folks can consider in implementing that pillar?
Amanda Chenkin: Yeah, that’s… and yes, correct. Like if you… there are definitely roles, particularly in healthcare, right, where if you’re in a particular kind of setting, working from home is not an option. However, where in that person’s day, can they have some autonomy? Are there certain processes or procedures or things that you can do independently or in a different time of day, like they’re not told exactly when they have to do it.
I think if you’re in more of office type work. You know, I think the work-from-home option comes up a lot. I know it’s come up in my house because my partner is told he has to go to the office when his job doesn’t necessarily dictate being in an office; that he can do most of his work on a computer at home.
So as an organization within the constraints, you know, can you allow people to decide how their work gets done in terms of the order in which the tasks are completed. You know, are you able maybe to build in some flexibility into somebody’s day and make it easier for them to go pick up a kid, go to a doctor’s appointment, take a slightly longer lunch so they can walk their dog like whatever that might be. And asking them, like, let’s remember, maybe asking your employees what could be done to make their day a little bit easier.
Again, maybe not everything is possible, but again, asking somebody what would help them, what would support them, what would make things easier for them is a surefire way to help them feel heard. And open up a conversation of yes, maybe we can do this, or well, we can’t do that, but what if we did this. And so I think that’s really a key piece.
Anush Hansen: I think that autonomy and flexibility piece also ties in directly with trust and feeling that your employer, your boss trusts you to get the work done and know how to do it and be able to do good work without being watched over or micro-managed. So I mean…
Amy Pierce-Danders: Anush, are you reading my mind here?
Anush Hansen: I am. It’s one of my many skills and talents.
Amy Pierce-Danders: All right, well, I appreciate that because written on a big piece paper right now says micro-management.
You know, that’s what I wanted to share is an easy implementing for our listeners is if you find yourself being someone who tends to micromanage, take the time to realize or recognize or dig deep about where those behaviors are coming from.
And I’ve talked to times, as Anush said, it’s out of the inability to trust, and I also encourage you to look at if you have individuals who have a perfectionist or micro-management tendency, work with them on digging out that route because that’s an easy way if we can extend trust. To people amongst our teams and our peers to easily put that work-life harmony pillar into practice.
So thank you for bringing that up. That was it was burning on me. It’s so hard for me not to interject sometimes.
Amanda Chenkin: Thank you for summarizing. Apparently, what I was trying to say, ’cause yes, you gotta trust people. And that’s what this comes down to… is can, you know, can we trust each other?
Amy Pierce-Danders: Absolutely. Amen, Miss Amanda. All right.
So we did touch on mattering at work. So I’m going to skip over to opportunity for growth. So the one I picked out here, Anush, is fostering clear equitable pathways for career advancement. What are your thoughts around maybe an implementation or thought process to begin around this pillar?
Anush Hansen: Sure. Well, I’ll say from my work with clients that the majority of clients’ employees want to grow in their career in one way or another. And that might come, you know, at a different pace at different times in their lives given what roles and responsibilities they have. But over the long term, they don’t want to be stagnant.
So, you know, having regular check-ins and conversations, whether it’s a quarterly career development meeting or maybe it’s a monthly check-in about how we’re meeting the employees’ career development desires. Again, it’s about having conversations. You know I can’t talk about this without talking about the term quiet quitting. Sorry to like, throw that in. Throw that bomb in here.
But the most, at least, the people that I work with, and you know, I’m not speaking for everyone here, but the clients that I work with want to do good work. They want to feel their work serves a purpose and that they get that sense of accomplishment. That they have some… what’s the word I’m looking for? Some say in how they are advancing in their career. So it’s just, a very big part of our occupational health and our well-being as a whole to be able to feel like we’re moving, moving toward goals and growing as an employee and as a person.
So I mean, we sound like broken records, but conversations like these are conversations to be had with your employees on a regular basis.
Amy Pierce-Danders: Yep, everybody had… we all have things we have to tick off the list. But one thing we forget to put on our list is time for authentic relationship building with the people that we’re surrounded with in our workplace lives. And the key to me, at least, is that authenticity, not just that – Oh, it’s time for the annual review.
If you could see me right now, I’m doing the robotic movements.
And, another thing I just wanted to add when it comes to career advancement, is having honest and authentic conversation with individuals. Often we promote out of people’s comfortability or push them into spaces and places. Maybe sometimes we’ve achieved where we are finding our ultimate happiness, so it’s not necessarily about moving up the ladder, but how to expand and go deeper in a current role as well.
And then we can do a future episode on quiet quitting. I have done a few of those in the past, but always willing to dig in because, or folks listening, there’s tons of material out there, but… quiet quitting can also be I’m just freaking thriving in the job that I’m doing. And you get what I’m being compensated for. So it’s not necessarily a bad thing. I’m doing all my stuff, and I’m doing it with excellence, but you only get so much blood from the rock. You get what you’re compensating me for.
All right, my friends. Well, I, you know, I would love to talk about, as Amanda said, all of these pillars for an hour. So maybe that should have been the idea of a five-part series here. But Tedi has me on a time frame.
So starting with you, Anush, we are all about shameless plugs here. Is there anything that you would like to share with our listeners before we close out?
Anush Hansen: Sure, I will shamelessly plug Balanced Card Sorts. So these are digital and hard copy card sort tools, that help employees and also students identify their career values, their wellness needs, and their work-life balance priorities.
I have three card sort tools. One is the student career values card sort, one is a student wellness card sort, and then one is a work-life balance assessment. So each of these tools helps the user identify and get clarity around what is most important to them in their career and work. But also, it helps them prepare for having conversations with either the people they work with or people at home or in their personal life in order to get the support that they need to be successful in getting those needs met and reaching their goals.
So that’s my shameless plug for you.
Amy Pierce-Danders: I will take that shameless plug. You know I’m a huge fan. I actually have all three decks sitting next to me and also utilize them online. So huge fan. So, Miss Amanda, you know about my shameless plug with being a previous guest. So what would you like to share with our listeners?
Amanda Chenkin: So also a big fan of the work-life balance assessment. I love a good card sort, in general. I think they really can help us… kind of move out of our head and maybe open up conversation in a different way that helps us go a little deeper expand our thinking and beliefs and goals.
And with that, I am doing a… I am using the work-life balance assessment for a virtual workshop on Friday, February 17th, from 11:30 to 1 p.m. Eastern time.
And so, it would be a good opportunity to try out the assessment for yourself. So it’s going to just be focused on using the tool for you and coming away with some… having some time to reflect, having some time to maybe think about this topic and have a… create… at least start a plan of how you want to make space in different areas of your life.
So, you can get more details and register at choicecareercounseling.com. I’m offering it at a discounted rate of $75 dollars, which includes the digital version of the work-life balance assessment. And then, we may do another one in the future. So I only have a few slots open. It’s only open for 10 people. And right now, I have about eight spots left. So that would be one way to try it out.
And then, in general, I’m here for career counseling and coaching. So you try and move through and manage your career.
Amy Pierce-Danders: And fun fact, everybody. I am actually attending Amanda’s workshop. So join us. I am excited to see how this is carried out in a group online environment. So I am so excited to join you, Amanda, for that.
Amanda Chenkin: Thank you, I’m excited.
Amy Pierce-Danders: And Anush, thank you for creating this deck; I encourage everybody to visit balancedcardsorts.com and check it out.
So Amanda and Anush, thank you again for joining us on this episode of career chat. I’ve truly enjoyed this conversation. I am fully confident that our conversation will shine a light on workplace mental health and well-being. And I really, really appreciate the takeaways that you’ve provided to our listeners. So that they can implement a few nuggets right away.
And for my official sign-off, my friends, unfortunately, our time together is coming to an end. You can stay connected with us by liking our Facebook page and heading on over to TediTalks.com to learn how you can connect with us, stay informed, and catch up on past episodes.
Your success is important to us. And we are committed to helping you grow, prosper and succeed. We look forward to having you join us for the next episode of career chat.
I just want to wish you a most amazing and successful day. Bye, everyone!